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	<title>The Centre Cannot Hold &#187; atheism</title>
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		<title>Science and Atheism</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/science-atheism/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/science-atheism/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Irregular Features]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Militant Agnostic]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[science]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecentrecannothold.net/?p=5627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>One of my greatest problems with atheists &#8211; in fact, probably my single greatest problem with atheists &#8211; is that for a bunch of people who make a lot of noise about being scientific, but tend to fall rather short of that not terribly elusive state. Let me show what I mean. First, you should [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my greatest problems with atheists &#8211; in fact, probably my single greatest problem with atheists &#8211; is that for a bunch of people who make a lot of noise about being scientific, but tend to fall rather short of that not terribly elusive state.  Let me show what I mean.<br />
<span id="more-5627"></span><br />
First, you should go and take a look at <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2010/04/why_am_i_not_agnostic_about_go.php">this post</a> on the otherwise very good Aardvarkaeology blog.</p>
<p>Seems fairly unobjectionable, for the most part.  I might disagree about the parsimony argument (as I&#8217;ve previously stated, tongue only partially in cheek, I find <a href="http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/random/militant-agnostic/intelligent-designs/">polytheism more likely than monotheism</a>) &#8211; there are many phenomena described by science that do not seem so very parsimonious to me (our own intelligence among them), but for the most part, this is a well-reasoned argument.</p>
<p>Except for this statement: <em>&#8220;if there were immensely powerful incorporeal consciousnesses out there, they would be a hot research topic in any number of scientific disciplines&#8221;</em>.  Because that is one of the most unscientific remarks I have ever heard.</p>
<p>If every scientist felt like that, we would not today have the sciences of micro-biology or particle physics, to name but two.  And conversely, if the existence of scientific study into a thing is all it takes to prove that it is true, then alchemy and astrology were apparently true during the Middle Ages.</p>
<p>Fortunately, a truly scientific attitude begins with an admission of ignorance, and seeks to correct it.  This is why, unlike the author of Aardvarkaeology, I am an agnostic.</p>
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		<title>Battling Fundamentalisms</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/battling-fundamentalisms/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/battling-fundamentalisms/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Sep 2010 21:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Irregular Features]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Militant Agnostic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[agnosticism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[atheism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[fundamentalism]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecentrecannothold.net/?p=4152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>I have on occasion likened the extreme assurance that certain high profile atheists seem to feel about the rightness of their beliefs to the fundamentalism of many of those on the more theist side of the equation. And I make no apology for the fact that I probably spend more time arguing against atheists than [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have on occasion likened the extreme assurance that certain high profile atheists seem to feel about the rightness of their beliefs to the fundamentalism of many of those on the more theist side of the equation.  And I make no apology for the fact that I probably spend more time arguing against atheists than theists here &#8211; in fact, I regard that as a major part of this series of posts.</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s a limit to that.  The differences between atheist fundamentalism and theist fundamentalism are somewhat more significant than the differences between, for example facist totalitarianism and communist totalitarianism.  For instance, of these four ideologies, atheist fundamentalism has by far the best human rights record.<br />
<span id="more-4152"></span><br />
That&#8217;s worth considering.</p>
<p>At no point in history have atheists burned people at the stake for not following the same dogma as them.  At no point have they mounted crusades, jihads or any such state of war.  At no point have they used what they believe as a justification for rape, murder, theft or anything else that is generally explicitly forbidden by the dogma of most theist religions.  (Not that they&#8217;re incapable of hypocrisy, just that they tend toward more socially acceptable forms of hypocrisy.)</p>
<p>Most atheists are generally as moral and decent as anyone else.  Sometimes moreso, although those tend to be the ones who are deliberately setting out to disprove the common theist assertion that without religion to teach moral behaviour, there wouldn&#8217;t be any.  (Theists are, for the most part, woefully ignorant of both philosophy and game theory, each of which manage to provide non-religious justifications for moral behaviour.  But I digress.)</p>
<p>But you know what?</p>
<p>So are most agnostics.  And we&#8217;re a lot less dogmatic about it.</p>
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		<title>Decision-Making</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/decisionmaking/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/decisionmaking/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 21:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[agnosticism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[atheism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Decision making]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Richard Dawkins]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Theism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecentrecannothold.net/?p=4154</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>The most common characterisation of agnostics that I&#8217;ve come across, from both theists and atheists, is that agnostics are simply indecisive. (Rather amusingly, Richard Dawkins mentions this in “The God Delusion” &#8211; it seems that this is the one part of the Christian dogma he was taught in school that he has inexplicably failed to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most common characterisation of agnostics that I&#8217;ve come across, from both theists and atheists, is that agnostics are simply indecisive.  (Rather amusingly, Richard Dawkins mentions this in “The God Delusion” &#8211; it seems that this is the one part of the Christian dogma he was taught in school that he has inexplicably failed to subject to his normal heroic scorn.)  There is an overall sense that agnostics are somehow weak-willed, pusillanimous folk who really just need to show some backbone.</p>
<p>As if standing up to this pressure from both sides to make a decision – any decision being better than none, apparently – did not require considerable backbone.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re all familiar with managers and politicians who need to be seen to be making decisions, leading to an endless and pointless stream of changed decisions.  The usual cure proposed is that they should make up their minds once and for all.  (The idea that persisting in an error might well be worse than not making a decision – Iraq, anyone? &#8211; seems just a foreign.)</p>
<p>Let me ask you something: Why?</p>
<p>Why is it so important to make a decision, now, today, before all the facts are in?  Generally speaking, in this life, anyone who wants you to do that is selling something – and hiding some nasty surprises in the small print.  That&#8217;s what I would assume about any salesman or politician who tried to it on – why should I assume any differently just &#8216;cos it&#8217;s a preacher talking?</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s assume good faith (so to speak) on the part of those pushing us to make this decision.</p>
<p>I think they suffer from a failure of the imagination.</p>
<p>They don&#8217;t seem able to see that there might be more information on which to base decisions later on.  They don&#8217;t want to admit that there will probably be more options to choose among if the decision is delayed (despite the fact that even the most cursory glance at religious history will show that there will most likely be some new splinter faith formed in the next five minutes or so).</p>
<p>Most insultingly, they don&#8217;t seem willing to acknowledge that choosing not to choose is a valid (or in extreme cases of this narrow-mindedness, a possible) choice.</p>
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		<title>Why most atheists aren&#8217;t just atheists</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/atheists-atheists/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/atheists-atheists/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 21:30:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Irregular Features]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Militant Agnostic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[athaumatism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[atheism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[supernatural]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecentrecannothold.net/?p=3565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>This has been bothering me for some time now. It was pointed out to me by a good friend who happens to be an atheist &#8211; an actual atheist (which is a distinction I&#8217;ll clarify further down), not a mis-named atheist. The reason I say this is that most atheists are strict materialists. They do [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has been bothering me for some time now.  It was pointed out to me by a good friend who happens to be an atheist &#8211; an actual atheist (which is a distinction I&#8217;ll clarify further down), not a mis-named atheist.<br />
<span id="more-3565"></span><br />
The reason I say this is that most atheists are strict materialists.  They do not believe in the existence of anything that isn&#8217;t directly provable either by human senses or by sufficiently reliable instruments.  They do not believe in anything supernatural.</p>
<p>And there is a logic to that position, but it still leads to an inaccuracy in their naming of themselves.  It&#8217;s true that God is supernatural in nature, but God is not all that is supernatural.</p>
<p>God is not, for example, a vampire.  He&#8217;s not astrology or tarot cards.  He does not turn into a wolf each full moon, nor appear in a half-fish form to lure sailors to their doom.</p>
<p>If your version of atheism includes a disbelief in the supernatural, as well as in God, then you are not an atheist, or rather,, you are not just an atheist.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re something more than that &#8211; an athaumatist (from the Greek thaumato, meaning wonder or wonders).  Atheism is a sub-section of Athaumatism, and the vast majority of self-proclaimed atheists should probably use language more carefully.</p>
<p>Or maybe that&#8217;s just me.  I&#8217;m pedantic like that.  Which is why I&#8217;m an agnostic in the first place.</p>
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		<title>On The Busses</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/on-the-busses/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/on-the-busses/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Militant Agnostic]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[intellectual honesty]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://paperedges.com/?p=510</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>It is both pleasing and infuriating to me that today, in a number of UK cities, busses carrying a variety of self-proclaimed &#8216;atheist&#8217; slogans are out doing the rounds.  You can read atheists patting themselves on the back about it all over.</p> <p>And to be fair, it is a worthy achievement, and one I support [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is both pleasing and infuriating to me that today, in a number of UK cities, busses carrying a variety of self-proclaimed &#8216;atheist&#8217; slogans are out doing the rounds.  You can read <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/06/religion-atheism" target="_blank">atheists patting themselves on the back about it</a> all over.</p>
<p>And to be fair, it is a worthy achievement, and one I support with but one reservation.  That one reservation, though, is not far short of being a deal-breaker for me.  Because the slogan that&#8217;s getting the most play is this one:</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><em><strong>There&#8217;s probably no God.</strong></em></p>
<p><span id="more-510"></span></p>
<p>Which, you know, is a fine, worthy and appropiately qualified thing to say.  What it&#8217;s not, however, is an atheist thing to say.  It&#8217;s an agnostic statement &#8211; the atheist equivalent of it would be <em>There is no God</em>.  Atheism, after all, is the belief that there is no God.  Not the assertion that there may be no God.</p>
<p>But it appears that Richard Dawkins may be a more corrosive influence than I previously realised, and that his enormously hypocritical willingness to distort facts, statistics and language in the service of his goals (which I&#8217;ve already <a href="http://paperedges.com/2008/04/09/richard-dawkins-got-delusion/" target="_self">ranted about previously</a>) is becoming a tactic as common to atheists as it is to their fundamentalist opponents.</p>
<p>Being an agnostic among atheists is a little like being in a relationship with someone obsessed with appearances &#8211; they really only want you around for show, so that the thing looks better and bigger than it is.  Under no circumstances should you ever open your mouth, let alone do so in order to call them on their bullshit.</p>
<p>So.</p>
<p>Agnostic slogans on the side of busses.  A victory of sorts, but a one tainted by the dishonesty of the victors.   Maybe next time.</p>
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		<title>A Question of Semantics</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/a-question-of-semantics/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/a-question-of-semantics/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecentrecannothold.net/?p=162</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s probably unfair of me to regard many atheists as being in denial. But I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s at all unfair to think that many of them (and indeed, a great majority of all people, whatever they may or may not believe) are insufficiently rigourous in their exercise of logic and their application of semantics.</p> [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s probably unfair of me to regard many atheists as being in denial. But I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s at all unfair to think that many of them (and indeed, a great majority of all people, whatever they may or may not believe) are insufficiently rigourous in their exercise of logic and their application of semantics.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;d say I was a terrible snob, but that&#8217;s not true &#8211; I&#8217;m really very good at it <img src='http://thecentrecannothold.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   )</p>
<p><span id="more-118"></span></p>
<p>The key point that I&#8217;m leading up to here is that the general atheist statement regarding God:</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><strong><em>I do not believe there is a God</em></strong></p>
<p>seems to me to be functionally equivalent to the statement:</p>
<p style="text-align: center;"><strong><em>I believe there is no God</em></strong></p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Indeed, if I were construct these two sentences in formal logic, there would be a difference only in where the negation was placed, and not at all in the meaning.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Now, this may seem like hair-splitting, but it seems to me that an atheist does believe &#8211; they believe in the non-existence of a thing <strong>in the absence of conclusive proof in its non-existence</strong>.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">That&#8217;s still a belief, as I see it.  As I&#8217;ve said before here, absence of proof does not constitute a disproof.  That&#8217;s why an agnostic (or at least, this agnostic) would phrase the statement as <em>I do not know if there is a God</em>.  (One could add  <em>or not </em>at the end, but there&#8217;s no need to &#8211; it means the same thing either way.)</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Atheism often presents itself as a fearless search for truth &#8211; Greta Christina, much as I love her writing, often falls into this trap in her writings on the subject (<a href="http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2008/08/the-problem-of-unfishiness.html" target="_blank">as here, for example</a>) &#8211; but it&#8217;s not truly fearless or searching if the truth you&#8217;re looking for is pre-determined at the outset.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">To say that God cannot possibly exist, since we cannot find any proof of his existence using all the instruments of modern science is ludicrous.  Science never stands still &#8211; tomorrow&#8217;s instrument will detect something that is theory today and was unsuspected yesterday.  If some newly invented instrument did detect God, today&#8217;s atheists would find themselves in the position of those who denied the existence of microscopic life before the microscope proved it existed.</p>
<p style="text-align: left;">Of course, I don&#8217;t think it is at all likely that God will suddenly be detected tomorrow &#8211; but I cannot rule out the possibility without committing that cardinal sin of science, speculating in advance of the data. If only atheists brought the rigour of their science to their faith&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Review: &#8220;The Twilight of Atheism&#8221; by Alister McGrath</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/review-the-twilight-of-atheism-by-alister-mcgrath/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/review-the-twilight-of-atheism-by-alister-mcgrath/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Alister McGrath]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[book review]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[The Twilight of Atheism]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thecentrecannothold.net/2008/06/25/review-the-twilight-of-atheism-by-alister-mcgrath/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[<p>As the title suggests, it doesn&#8217;t have a lot to do with agnosticism &#8211; although it does treat doubt with more courtesy and respect than Dawkins seems capable of. It&#8217;s a fascinating read, too, which again scores it above &#8220;The God Delusion&#8221; &#8211; and it has some interesting ideas about both faith and doubt, and [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the title suggests, it doesn&#8217;t have a lot to do with agnosticism &#8211; although it does treat doubt with more courtesy and respect than Dawkins seems capable of. It&#8217;s a fascinating read, too, which again scores it above &#8220;The God Delusion&#8221; &#8211; and it has some interesting ideas about both faith and doubt, and the historical context of both.</p>
<p>But I feel it misses the point of its own arguments.<br />
<span id="more-111"></span></p>
<p>McGrath argues quite convincingly that modern atheism is very much a product of its Enlightenment roots.  He reaches from this to say that now that the project of the Enlightenment either has been achieved or has failed (he does try it both ways), atheism has lost its way and serves no further purpose.</p>
<p>He goes on to propose that there is a cyclical movement from belief to atheism and back to belief again, without stopping to consider what his own choice of metaphor implies, i.e. that the cycle will only continue.  Interestingly, he does note in an offhanded remark that there will be some people who will choose agnosticism as a means of breaking free of this cycle &#8211; but the idea that as the cycle continues throughout history, those people will only grow in number (as each iteration of the cycle makes the pointlessness of the whole thing ever more obvious) is also one he cannot reach for.</p>
<p>Ultimately, this is a book that makes some very interesting points about the origins of atheism &#8211; points I have yet to see any atheist address, I might add &#8211; but which is a little too willing to engage in wishful thinking in drawing its conclusions, or indeed, in thinking that the argument between belief and disbelief will ever be concluded.</p>
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		<title>Richard Dawkins: Got Delusion?</title>
		<link>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/richard-dawkins-got-delusion/</link>
		<comments>http://thecentrecannothold.net/blog/richard-dawkins-got-delusion/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 21:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Loki</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Blog]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Irregular Features]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Militant Agnostic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[agnosticism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[atheism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[book review]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Richard Dawkins]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[The God Delusion]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[<p>So I&#8217;ve been reading &#8220;The God Delusion&#8221; by Richard Dawkins.</p> <p>Which I&#8217;ve got to say, is among the most insulting books I&#8217;ve ever read.</p> <p>Naturally, I speak here as an agnostic &#8211; which so far as Dawkins is concerned, makes me a side issue at best. I can only imagine how insulted you&#8217;d be by [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I&#8217;ve been reading &#8220;The God Delusion&#8221; by Richard Dawkins.</p>
<p>Which I&#8217;ve got to say, is among the most insulting books I&#8217;ve ever read.</p>
<p>Naturally, I speak here as an agnostic &#8211; which so far as Dawkins is concerned, makes me a side issue at best. I can only imagine how insulted you&#8217;d be by it if you actually had faith.</p>
<p><span id="more-88"></span></p>
<p>I mostly read this book to find out what he had to say about agnostics in it. Unsurprisingly, it&#8217;s the same old fence-sitting garbage to begin with. I&#8217;ve dispensed with that in previous installments, so I won&#8217;t go into it here. But then he goes somewhere completely unexpected, claiming that a number of famous agnostics were &#8216;really&#8217; atheists. He (deliberately, so far as I can tell) confuses agnosticism on different matters, claiming that all varieties of agnosticism are the same.</p>
<p>In fact, Dawkins&#8217; definition of atheist includes at least part of the territory that is usually considered to be that claimed by agnostics. He claims not to have met very many atheists at all who are dogmatically convinced that God definitely does not exist, which strikes me as odd, seeing as this is the common or garden variety atheist as far as I can tell. Instead, anyone who has doubts but chooses to assume that god is not real, is classed as an atheist. Presumably, Dawkins does not use any definition of atheist I could find in a dictionary &#8211; although whatever definition he does use is remarkably flexible and rather suspiciously not to be found in his book.</p>
<p>Although he acknowledges the great work of T.H.Huxley, who first formulated modern agnosticism (and incidentally, coined the terms agnostic and agnosticism), he immediately goes on to distort the words of the man. Although Dawkins (correctly) states that Huxley&#8217;s definition of agnosticism was as a process, not a state, Dawkins then proceeds to argue as if agnosticism is in fact not a process, but rather, a fixed system of beliefs that requires absolute adherence to its dogma. In Dawkins&#8217; fractured calculus, you&#8217;re only an agnostic if you believe that the arguments for and against a proposition are precisely equal. You know, just like you&#8217;re only a bisexual if you&#8217;ve had precisely the same number of sexual experiences with each sex.</p>
<p>Dawkins gives an example of a fatuous statement which he claims is agnostic in nature &#8211; a statement of Augeste Comte&#8217;s which had already been proved false when Comte made it (although not to Comte&#8217;s knowledge, a point Dawkins conveniently fails to mention). The statement is reproduced, and is clearly not an agnostic statement,since it is in the form &#8220;I believe&#8221; &#8211; not that this matters to Dawkins. Throughout the book, Dawkins argues his case as if atheism is a true and noble search for the truth, as opposed to a pre-emptory and logically ill-founded claim of &#8216;game over, I win&#8217; &#8211; and neglects to mention just exactly how much he&#8217;s prepared to distort the truth in his feckless pursuit of victory.</p>
<p>If this is the best that atheists can offer, they&#8217;re in serious trouble:</p>
<p>You really don&#8217;t want a man who can&#8217;t recognise a joke when he&#8217;s <a title="Have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage?" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster" target="_blank">touched by its noodly appendage</a> as your standard bearer&#8230;</p>
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